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The market

Open Archived Jamzi opened this discussion on

Darkwing -

My whole issue is:

normally when an alliance mate would take “my” soldiers from the market, it would be OK as the market amount would be zero (as it normally can't be minus right?)

But now our market value for soldiers is minus 40K. Meaning that whenever I put in my newly trained soldiers.....I can't take them out anymore. If the market would be zero then I can put them on and take them out again.

We have the situation that our market is minus because of past lives..... I think a market reset would have been better as then it would have been zero and never can go negative..... [8)]

Cecil -

on the plus side, its made hnr much more effective

Bolle -

I just checked your market and the only reason it's screwed up is because one of your own players simply hasn't trained soldiers but instead borrowed them.

Darkwing -

but Bolle, how does it work???

yesterday the market was at -38K, I dumped 10K taking it to -28K.

Now the market stands at -44K....how come he/she can keep buying soldiers when the market is negative? I can't buy any as it shows for me available -44K total I can buy 0. So how come we go more and more in the negative if we can't buy sols??

Bolle -

That's only possible if you actually had a minor amount of soldiers still left in the unaccounted for section, or if someone recently died who had a positive amount of soldiers.

The only thing that can happen to soldiers on the market is that the ones in the unaccounted for section disappear. Once it hits zero there, nothing will change except what you put into it.

I think that one of your alliancemates died at the same time with a slight positive amount of soldiers. Those 16k soldiers decayed in a few ticks and that's why you're now at -44k.

Darkwing -

ok makes sense. My elder came with a great idea so now we have 275K soldiers in the market again, which will help us out for now. [;)]

Thanks

Bolle -

Those soldiers will decay over time so make sure to train soldiers fast anyway.

Sanzo -

Looks like he tried your reset strategy

Darkwing -

yup. I am now the official soldier provider for our alliance. [evilgrin]

AgmAr -

I wouldn't say that too loud, since when you are killed your alliance will have the exact same problem again.

Noodle -

I dunno reset it back the the way it used to be?
If its not broken why fix it?[:D][:D]

AgmAr -

It was broken, and we fixed it.

Darkwing -

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It was broken, and we fixed it.


[8)]

Joe -

This is a lengthy reply to Jamzi's annoyed post. First of all I'm sorry you're annoyed. Secondly I warn you that this post might be a bit sharp in some parts. Thirdly I beg you to listen to one that once passed the Jamzi test (and still is proud about it) ;)

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Ah OK. I am someone who plays the game for fun/casually rather than keeping up with all the “might be” changes just because I don't find that stuff interesting anymore. Hence I didn't really know what would happen with the change.


It's a shame you lost your interest really ;)

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I guess I didn't see the point of the market because of my unique circumstances in not having researched fully/prepared but merely bumbling along in the manner of a regular casual player. I don't expect you to cater for us since we are the minority now after all.


For most games it does make sense to read the rules of the game and the mechanics before playing it. Ofcourse you can play it without any knowledge but it is a little bit weird if you claim that your lack of knowledge should be taken care of by anyone. In chess for example you cannot make invalid moves, not even if you don't know what moves are invalid. A game cannot exist when it's players don't put time in learning it's rules and mechanisms.

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For those of you wondering how this might have affected my game i'll just say it has made it unplayable for the near future for myself and my alli mates, 3 of who had just restarted (so needing a lot of soldiers) and two of who are awaiting restart. Shame I wasn't fully prepared like the people who implemented the change but oh well - my bad!!


You are quite right indeed. Luckily by learning the rules you could also quickly find loopholes to abuse by restarting your tribe quickly over again while pushing alot of soldiers (although the system is crafted well enough to make it only work for a short amount of time).

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Actually this isn't like old Orkfia because then I knew a reset was coming because I was actually excited about it. Now time goes on and on and on and on and on so I am lucky if I care my tribe is dead or alive. Ahh none of it really matters anyway, including this thread. yawn.


You could realise that the thing changed the most seems to be you (although I won't deny that Orkfia did change alot too).

I'm a bit sad about not seeing an actively engaged Jamzi who is happy to help other people and build a community feeling around the game that we all are playing. Instead you seem to be annoyed for some reason which I don't know and which possibly you don't know either. In any case, Staff is trying it's best to make Orkfia as enjoyable as possible. A lot of work is done behind the scenes and this market change has been thought up in more than two years (and coding also took a long time as far as I know). You don't have to agree with everything Staff does, nor do you have to be enthusiast about changes. But please bear with us while we try to do the work that needs being done. Finally, if you think things are going for the worse, please bring some energy and arguments instead of feelings. Tell us why things are bad and how they should change for the better.

Darkwing -

Comparing it with chess rules seems a bit silly. I think those rules didnt change for 1500 years [:D]

Cecil -

magic the gathering then? those change every 2-3 months

Joe -

@ Darkwing: In any case it's not the point how 'steady' a game's rules are, but rather THAT a game must have rules to obey and that it makes sense to learn them when playing the game. Ofcourse the comparison doesn't make sense in some respects. But it does make sense in the respect that one can't complain about not knowing the rules when playing a game, and chess is a very clear example for that because the rules are so utterly arbitrary (why can't my rook move in diagonals? My bishops can too! I thought rooks were stronger than bishops! What a stupid game!)

(Btw a bit offtopic: current chess rules are are about 150 years old in more or less precise form and max 600 years old in rough form (before that queens and bishops were very weak pieces for instance and had different movement from now etc..). Also chess rules are different for different types of chess (blitz/rapid/correspondence, 'normal' and tournament play etc...))

[OH]Flossette -

Can we make it so deficits decrease towards 0 as well?

max -

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Can we make it so deficits decrease towards 0 as well?

They do already.

Cecil -

i think hes refering to no negatives

Bolle -

like, personal negatives.

Joe -

As some people still seem to not understand how the market works I'll try to give a bit more explanation. It's not very complex but it's a bit 'new' to what the market was before. /edit: the last alinea gives a very short advice if you think the post is too long ;)

We start in classic Orkfia. You've got a market and you can put your goods in it. You can take them out again or you can also take others goods out (and they taking your goods). So it is possible to have a single tribe pump soldiers for the whole alliance, receiving money back for it from the rest of the alli etc... At the end of the age the game is reset and markets are empty again. This is easy and simple, so far so good.

A few years ago Orkfia has involved into AatW with an infinite timespan. The old market system quickly lead to enormous markets for older alliances as their goods were never reset. In short: any goods from a dying tribe just stayed in the market forever. This was pretty unfair towards new alliances as older alliances often had had huge tribes in previous life that had nothing better to do than flooding the market with billions of money (and wood) for future life (especially after old science was replaced).

Recently the market has evolved into something much more resembling the classical market again. The basics are that any goods that aren't 'owned' or put in by a living tribe will decay over time.
This solution to the mass-market problem was thought to be flawed however, because it did not permit very well for trading resources with alliance mates. Imagine for instance a nice wood-money trade deal between an old and big LE and the rest of his alli. The LE would pump massive money while he would buy all the wood his small mates could provide him with, leading to some record like +102 million money and -6 million wood. This would all work flawlessly up to the point that the LE dies. Suddenly his +102 million money would be 'noones' and would start decaying away quickly while the -6 million wood would pour into the market. The end result after 2 weeks (assuming the rest of the alli did nothing at all) would be -102 million money and 12 million wood and it would stay so until all other tribes died too.

So a pretty simple solution was made: when two tribes records are 'mirroring' they are solved against eachother.

'Mirrored' means:
Tribe x' record: positive q, negative p
Tribe y' record: negative q, positive p
In this case x' and y' records are mirroring eachother.

Solving means: q is substracted from x' record and added to y's while q's worth in p is added to x' record and substracted from y's record up until one of the four sections in the record hits zero.
If that sounds complicated, read it again until you get what it means. (/edit: or ask for additional explanation :))

This complicated sounding mathemical action does exactly nothing at all: your credits stay the same. Your market total stays the same. Only your records are solved against eachother. This is done to make trading possible. To recap our example above: the LE's +102 million money and -6 million wood record would be solved against the -102 million money and +6 million wood record of the rest of his alliance. When the LE dies, he has a 0/0 record and no goods start decaying at all. Trade has taken place.

Now what this new market system does not (unlike the old classical market system) is keeping an account of what exactly you have put into the market. This seems to be troubling many players as they are very much used to it and get confused when they put in 10 million money and check their record and see '0 money'. To those players I'd say: don't be confused, someone in your alli is providing you with some non-money resource while you provide him with money. This is reflected accurately in your records. If you want to keep your money record for yourself, stop running negative records in other goods. You put money in a market, it can go anywhere in your alliance. It's a market after all!

If you really find all this stupid or too long to read then there is a simple solution to all your problems: use the market as a bank only. Never buy a single resource which you didn't put in. If you do this faithfully, your records will ALWAYS show precisely the stuff you have put in. The records only get messed up when you're getting negative into some good type. Blame yourself if you can't live with that.

Joe -

To add a small tiny bit: p and q in above example can only be wood, food or money. Soldier records aren't traded at all (because soldier worth is not fixed over all races).
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