Can give us some data? I'm not exactly playing thief atm.

Simply put, what's the average damage (and why is it not good).

did 0.60% dmg per op. Now im not sure if size matters (i was around 60% of target size) so that standard damage is 1%. Anyway for such a worthless building i feel that the standard dmg per op should be more around 2%.

Consider Dwarfs.(though in that case my guess would be 1% would still be justified)

what about dwarves? boo hoo if they would actually need thief def? :P

Dwarves can freely choose to split land between mines and yards, so increasing the percentage seems okay.

Personally, I would like to see higher on wildfire or engineered explosives just to make dwarves more killable

nah leave as is.....

Kirby: that has one problem non-related to dwarves. You see, if it is too easy to destroy mines/yards, it will be worth destroying them simply for the sake of what you eat away from someone else's income.

I'd rather make dwarves less resistent to magic/thievery, i.e. receive more damage. Also, dwarves may seem hard to kill, but for a dwarf, it's both hard to grow and hard to be useful. Because, despite the 2 hour build time, you are at your weakest when you are converting to become useful in the coming war, or growth mode. Either way, a dwarf can easily be killed while converting, although a smart one will convert @59:30 so you don't have time for it. But even then, dwarves have really bad ratios, especially with the increased military ratios that have recently appeared. Their best defense unit: 0/7. I mean, I'm a DE and I have been forced into a 45/55 citz/military ratio simply to keep my acres, at some point. Most dwarves are hard to kill, but also hard to grow with, and their use in war is doubtful.

keep in mind they could spread their conversion out (thus risking less) by doing half conversion, then 2 ticks later when those buildings are converted, convert the other half. meaning less buildings in construction at one time, thus you lose less cit space and have a smaller % out of order at a time. but still only have a 4 hour conversion time, like the rest of the races, so its convenient enough to do in most situations

I'd like to point out some races (wood elf for example) become horribly space-inefficient (as much as 30/70 cit/mil ratio) in full warmode, dwarves being 45/55 isn't THAT bad (if that is a common ratio for them)

~aqua

P.S. would it really be that bad to have engineered explosives actually GOOD for reducing income? I mean you said “if its too easy to destroy mines/yards, it will be worth destroying them to eat away at someones income”... that is its PRIMARY function, not just for killing dwarves.. :P
Having it actually viable for that objective makes new viable strats (for example you could income deprive an alliance for a week before declaring war on them to ensure their credits are low leading into it, making it an easier victory)

Which means they're not as fast in converting, which was my whole point. How else can 2 hours be slow?



That was DE, 0/7s only. Dwarves would also need offense somewhere, no?

“Which means they're not as fast in converting”

I guess I don't follow... how is a dwarf converting in 4 ticks “not as fast” as other races converting in 4 ticks? 4 ticks is 4 ticks...

and about the 45/55... yea I read too quickly, somehow i thought you said dwarves were getting that.. :P

WE inefficient? i easily have better than 50/50 military-citz in WM running 40tpa and 400dpa

You cant train a shitload military and convert youre buildings at the same time as dwarf without taking huge risks, so it actually takes 5 ticks or 6/7 if you want to play it more safe :D

40 tpa? odd.. I've ran closer to 70 tpa and able to use it all.. (and could run up to 75tpa if expected to fail a lot of ops and lose thieves, so that you would still have enough for max firepower possible in 2 ticks when thieves return) I just assumed you would run the most possible..

My last 2 plays as WE, i ran into nearly 25/75 situations in full war mode, and that was with full homes and excess markets, even with the extra space provided from the hideouts, it didn't seem enough to feel safe.

Regardless, i only listed it as one example. if I'm wrong about this one case, (and i may be because I haven't played a TON of thief) then so be it. but the point i was using this example to showcase is still valid. 45/55 wouldn't be TOO horribly bad for a Dwarf (although that's not relevant because that isn't what was said, i just misread bolle's statement)

~aqua

edit - OrigenX has a point. but the same is true for all non dwarves as well... if you mass train units while rebuilding, you are running the risk of dying. so non dwarves convert time could go as high as 8 ticks then (4 to rebuild, 4 to retrain) 6/7 if you do things at XX:59:30's. so it would still be relatively equal

May I address #17 to the fact that, unlike their experience, most dwarves (and for that matter, wood elves) don't start around 12k with convertion? Us mundane orkfians are used to converting at a stunning 3k acres. I know, you despise that size. Anyway, it's really tricky to be WE at it. But if you're bigger, you're pwned by penalties.

Back to dwarves. The worse your citz ratio, the harder it is to convert. I.e. the more you are not part of #17, the harder it is to convert.

listen to bolle. he ended up with negative citz and had to release soldiers converting to grab mode ;)

ps. WE is the safest TM in WM, with possible exception of LE.

It's possible Bolle meant this sort of strategy would be extremely annoying. I'm inclined to agree. :P

LE is safest imo. ML 30, huge citz ratio due to hugely efficient units. WEs also have that, but they have thieves so are weaker citz-wise ;)

any LE that wants to live has at least 30 TPA, bolle

(edit: I don't disagree that LE's the safest WMer)