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Topic: undead
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Sorte Diaboli, February 2012, edited
i was going over the races preparing for my next life to see what race i would try out next as i find exploring to be very boring. when i came across the undead. i noticed several changes that really caught my attention and brought up some questions. 1. •Can not cast selfspells. ok i understand undead can be a pretty tough race to face. but to remove the aid of self spells that help produce esstentials i do not understand why this ability was taken away along with the self def spell (pest). in my opinion i do not see how this balances the race. 2. •Do not use basics, cannot buy basics from the market. Cannot release any basics. how is a race suppose to train military without basics maybe i over looked something. but how does this balance a race? if you have no basics you can't train. which means you can't attack. so how would one grow, since exploring has been removed from undead. now it says you gain vampires from your attacks but with no military how do you attack?
HaRRy, February 2012, edited
I will leave the first question to be answered by someone else. The second answer is pretty straight forward: you can train military without training basics first. So 'money -> military' instead of 'money -> basics -> military'
Bolle, February 2012, edited
1 doesn't balance the race, it's a trait. Unit cost and unit values balance the race to make up for bad and good traits. Sometimes, that's just impossible (huge costs on some efficient races in AatW, like old nazzies with 2500 cr for a 13/13). 2 think outside the box just a hint: train military straight away. No need for basics.
Joe, February 2012
The SELFspell removal is a cool unique trait which belonged to old Nazgul. It basically means you are slower and less versatile. This is made up for by being stronger and more efficient (but right now this isn't too apparent yet because there are still some 'old' attackers in game which are being tuned down as we speak: Repties and Viks). It is possible that UD are quite underpowered or overpowered though. It is up to you to find out ;) In general we try to underpower rather than overpower new races.
Sorte Diaboli, February 2012
well from what i gathered here. i think i may have found a way to compensate those changes. but in doing so it would put undead in a position to be an attack only race. dark spells and black ops would be out of the question espeacially in the begining. wich i like and feel is how it should be attackers attack, mages cast, thieves run ops. i believe my next life i will try out my ideas as undead and i will let you know how it works out.
Joe, February 2012
UD are definitely meant to be played as attacker. They have good bonuses for it and immortal elites with shortened return times. Also, exploring is impossible with them ;) It may have escaped attention but the big drawback with UD (apart from their slowness/expensive units) is that they are NOT able to release soldiers for citizens. This means the main way of avoiding death when getting killed is not available to you. An alliance hammering down your citz structurally will be very hard to defend against (which is why they can 'raid for citzgain' as a way of defending)
Sorte Diaboli, February 2012
yes i know they are attackers but i should have been more clear. they are attack only and can not be used as a hybrid race (wich i like). since you need to compensate for the loss of essentials gained through self spell aid you have to boost other areas to grow. basically leaving no room to build guild/acads or hideouts. at a certain size you could compensate the citizen loss by constructing churches and guard houses to help defend. though it is not a complete deterant to stop death but it could aid one cut back on losses by making it a little more difficult for one to cast or run ops on you.
legend, February 2012
I think UD need some more trait to be playable like 9/9 elites or sumthin. however it will be fun to watch the progress
Sorte Diaboli, February 2012
i believe they are playable. just going to be a slight challenge to get a sound growth strat the rest should fall into place once it is established. i believe undead could be my next race that lasts for a long time as raven was for how long. but before i commit that i need to make sure my ideas work first. if they do i will commit to that race for awhile.
Joe, February 2012, edited
Whatever the playerbase will find out, Dev will rebalance things according to it. If there is some 'uberstrat' for UD they will get nerfed a bit in some way. If they are absolutely unplayable in any way, they will be boosted ;) But the main concept (slow, steady, attacking and with a vulnerability to citizen-kills) will remain the same unless it is found out that it is impossible to balance (for instance, old Nazz had as main trait 'extremely efficient' but it was impossible to balance since the trait itself upset gameplay majorly by forcing all other races intro extreme defences, petrifying the whole game)
Sorte Diaboli, February 2012
well i wouldn't say i have an uberstrat for them. just a possible strat figured out. it could fail horribly, it could work out just fine. no clue how it will it go. it is definately going to be a trial and error strat. like i said if all goes well i will let you guys know.
Sonix, February 2012
Btw, the current nazzis are pretty much pure attackers too. You're not going to mage w/ an instnat 25% chance to fail not including enemy's mage level and churches. Also here's something to think about. As UD, BC as often as other attackers raid :P.
Sorte Diaboli, February 2012, edited
why in gods name would you run bc over raid as a undead? in a sense you do kill citizens but not in the way a raid would. now with the changes raids would be needed to help generate grwoth. as where the bc would destroy building taking out citizens but as an undead you would not gain from those deaths. you would just merely cripple your opponent, and it would not be not be a logical attack to help one grow playing undead.
Bolle, February 2012
kills thieves = more vamps maybe. I'm not sure that's coded though.
Sonix, February 2012, edited
^Quote why in gods name would you run bc over raid as a undead? Why in gods name wouldn't you? kill a bunch of thieves (maybe 10k in 1 BC = 2.5k vampires) ^Quote kills thieves = more vamps maybe. I'm not sure that's coded though. Why would it not be? their race ability says 25% of all units killed become vampires.
legend, February 2012
if thieves killed gives vamp then BC is the logical choice, not sure how it works though
Sorte Diaboli, February 2012
for starters it says slain army. now if not mistaken correct me if i am wrong. but when you attack a player you are attacking his defense, and since the majority of the races have a 0/0 spec for thieves i do not think they would count towards the army you are attacking. now if they would count that is a different story. if they don't count running raids is more efficient, yes a bit more offense needs to be sent, but you are gaining crowns and citizens being added to your population helping in your crown production. as army slain in battle will be turned to vampire as well. so in my honest opinion if thieves do not count towards army you are attacking i do not see how bc would be more effective in growth as were a raid would be.
Sonix, February 2012, edited
Why would thieves not count as ur army? And races that you would use BC against all have 0/2 or 0/3 or 0/6 thieves. ^Quote citizens being added to your population helping in your crown production. you do realize that if you are at max citizens and you raid, the gained population from the raid will go away after the tick, right?
Sorte Diaboli, February 2012, edited
i am aware, but according to what i have read and if understood, raids will be a helpful factor in growth. well like i said if not mistaken correct me if i am wrong. you attack a def, wich would mean a def unit and an elite unit if present. as far as i know thieves are not factored into play. wich is why i think thieve units have been all been given a 0/0 spec. maybe i i misunderstood or took things the wrong way. but like i said i can be wrong there, if i am it is a whole different story regarding bc's and raids.
Sonix, February 2012
Well raids will be a helpful factor just in the fact that it lets you sacrifice the citizens you gain from a raid to use as RP and the money. But it won't increase ur max citizens so you'll lose any extra you get from the raid after the tick. Also, BC specifically targets thieves so i don't see why they shouldn't count as army. + if you attack a templar or an owl, I know for a fact that they lose clerics and theives on normal attack.
Sorte Diaboli, February 2012
yes but in order to gain it is army slain. if thieves do not count as army yes you would be slaying them but there is no gain from it. you would be gaining from the actualy def/elites you kill. now if thieves counted as army i would see bc being a more effective attack to use to gain from. but as with losing citizen due under housing, you would have to consider the fact you would be losing population as well once you gained the vampire units from the thieves, i would assume one would probally be losing more population from a bc then from a raid.
Joe, February 2012
@ Sonix: I am not sure and will ask max_ but I think you only gain Vampires from army 'slain in/by battle' and not by any other effects (like LB, BC effects etc..) The best way of attacking to gain maximum Vamps is probably HnRing a Britt, Mori or Temp.
Sonix, February 2012, edited
No i get what ur saying but i'm saying that i think thieves should count as army because when u standard attack an owl all they have are thieves and it still says they lost XXX army units. Also, yes you wud lose citizens from BC because of the vampire gains but what i'm saying is that because of raids, you aren't going to get more tax money because u have more citizens. Ex. if i have 100k citizens and I BC and kill 10k thieves. That means after the tick i'll have 97,500 citizens and 2.5k more vampires. if i have 100k citizens and I raid and kill 10k citizens. That means i'll have 110k citizens until the tick, then my citizens will go back to 100k and my income that tick would be as if i had 100k citizens the whole time. so basically the only purpose for the killed citizens to join as ur population is so that u can release them for RP
Sorte Diaboli, February 2012, edited
but it helps develop growth. if your ally uses research then those rp's could be put towards economics helping in citizen growth, wich in turn produces crown production. i didn't think i had to break down every detail when i said it helps growth. i don't recall factoring in thief units to an attack unless they had a def spec. in the past. but now with a 0/0 spec i am assuming they would not be counted towrds a def army anymore. therefore i would not expect to see them count towards a vampire gain. now vampires are an immortal unit so you would end up with a -citizen update due to the fact you are gaining with no room. you would be gaining military yes, but at the same time you would be losing population to house your military gain.
Joe, February 2012
Robokop checked and Vamps gained does work just for army slain in battle during attacks. The thieves killed by BC are not regarded as 'part of the battle' but the effect of the attack. Ofcourse if a tribe has thieves (or soldiers) with defence points it is possible to slay them in battle and they will yield Vamps. Also the whole thing obviously only works on the offensive and not when killing units while defending.
Frisbee, February 2012
HnR is kinda nice if u get wrps aswell u kill more troops and then u get more vamps :)
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