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Balrogs - overpowered?

Open Archived Dil-zo opened this discussion on

Dil-zo -

there is a balrog with over 350 DPA, and 700 OPA and he has morre citizens then me... Im oleg and have 400 DPA/OPA and he still tops me citizen wise.... that isn't right to me...

jammed -

his 700 OPA is including his elites. so basically he can't send out his too much elites without losing def and end up suiciding.

kemi-san -

well, if that's with his elites, he should still be able to send out 300 opa without dropping his dpa.. so yeah, they're overpowered, we've all said this before, including the guys currently playing balrogs =P but dev. apparently felt it was good enough to remove some of their magic capability to make them balanced.

thedritpwnskkkk -

balrogs need to be removed and rebalanced

kemi-san -

see? even the current balrogs agree ;)

Dev Lord Iluros -

What exactly is abnormal about 350 DPA, 300 sendable OPA?

Dil-zo -

its not 300 sendable, they can suicide somewhat chronic...

kemi-san -

meh, i'll stay outta this =P

Bolle -

Me too

EDIT: Ok, I won't.

Iluros, what's normal about a balrog with a 50/50 ratio grabbing a DE with a 50/50 ratio? And yes, I checked his tribe, and no, he didn't have little defense or something, probably more than me, the DE.

Mr X -

I think balrogs can be fixed rather easily.
Just force them to have 30% homes like all the rest. (and make homes generate 150 cits) intstead of 15% homes gaining 300 cits. As it is now they have a 23 OS and a 16 DS, which is acctually more like a 11.5 and a 8 given the homes... thats not super stats (like nazguls 13/13) but still better than the average. So I think the problem is really the % homes...

Bolle -

The problem is markets/barracks and other buildings in general.

Quote
Change: Markets and barracks hold half
----->
Non-homes hold half (including markets and barracks)


That was solved in the age changes, cuz us Dev'ers ain't that noob. Nevertheless, I can't say balrog appear balanced, I'm just not able to explain just WHY they are so efficient. Except, maybe, their 15% extra buildings + them being an elite/spec attacker race and generally good stats.

Joe -

Yes. 15% extra space is extremely good for all purposes (like, for example, running 20% weaps AND 15% walls on top of t/m defence during a grabspree.. Especially as elite/spec attacker that can raze walls after the spree and be safe with all elites home)

Aqualightnin -

I'd say they could stand having 1-2 offense removed from a unit, preferably their elites (making them 13/13 instead of 15/13). I don't think that would overbalance too much at all.

Bolle -

Well I'm more concerned about the use of 15% for barracks and/or markets in addition to t/m defense. Or, in short, an effective increase of 300/50=6, aka 15/6=2.5% homes, meaning 17.5% homes effectively, not 15%, meaning an increase of, say, 22% compared to intended?

Aqualightnin -

maybe make non homes hold half, barracks/markets hold 25%? or remove the racial damage reduction because they can more easily (and should) utilize Guard Houses and Churches? sure they can still opt to use the barracks and markets instead of GH/Churches, but will be more vulnerable because they did so.

I don't know, just a thought. I haven't personally played as them (against them more than enough though) so take it as you may.

Bolle -

Iluros thinks Balrogs are poor weak babies who need their damage reduction. And with the current minimal installment, he has a point ^^

I'd rather opt for modifying the elite stats, and/or disable walls for balrogs.

thedritpwnskkkk -

the problem is what kind of damage a balrog can dish out in warmode(raze+ungodly guild amounts) while still being protected combined with being a fast grower. Balance this without making htem boring, id suggest some price adjustments, especially on their offensive units.

Bolle -

well we have the problem there then, high offensive capabilities with a danger of making them easy kills if countered. 30% homes solves it all but makes em boring (+ 15% homes so nicely allows for 6.5 stats or 7.5 stats :P)

I'd prefer lowering their offense points, taking increased markets/barracks into account I think, as opposed to raise cost. Raising cost is similar to benefiting 2k acre heritage balrogs and discouraging 400 acre balrogs.

Aqualightnin -

reducing stats hurts more the larger you are, increased costs hurts more the smaller you are..

it would be smarter to reduce the stat(s) rather than increase cost.

Dev Lord Iluros -

Quote

Iluros thinks Balrogs are poor weak babies who need their damage reduction. And with the current minimal installment, he has a point ^^

I'd rather opt for modifying the elite stats, and/or disable walls for balrogs.


Eh? Remember that it's 25% less damage only on military losses. So it only reduces damage on things like lightning bolt. We already removed their building damage reduction.

Anyway, yeah the elite stats can be nerfed easily enough.

thedritpwnskkkk -

...by increasing costs you dont get large. And it solves the problem of midage changes. Notice i said costs on offensive units, so the heritage non-issue that only exists in your heads is a double non-issue. But ok if you want to cut the balrog penis off at the root by nerfing their stats, fine. Just don't expect anyone to play them afterwards.

Aqualightnin -

well if you make them more expensive, its harder to grow at small sizes because your income remains the same as it was at those sizes before, except the cost is now higher, meaning less troops trained per tick at small sizes, but their efficiency remains unchanged, so this will have much less effect at sizes above, say, 2k. whereas if you reduce the offense stat on the elite units, you can still grow at relatively the same speed as current (at least concerning defense, which is a priority) while maybe having to wait 6-12 ticks longer to do your attack (and that is only if you are training elite heavy)

but as you get larger, and those elites start to stack up, they will be less efficient than they were before, offering less offense per space taken up, meaning you will need more of them, which will slow down growth (comparatively to current) only significantly at the high end of the spectrum (when you have hundreds of thousands of them, rather than just hundreds)

so in the decision between changing cost or stats, stats is better in the situation. the goal here, I believe, is to make them less space efficient to overcome the fact that balrogs are getting more cit-space than expected with the 15% homes (as Bolle pointed out, 22% increase over intended)

having more citspace than intended has 2 major side effects, larger income, and more survivability. increasing cost only counteracts the increased income, while leaving the survivability unchanged. reducing stats will counteract both.

I think I said everything I meant to say (and correctly to boot), but I'm a about 12 hours overdue on sleep, so someone correct me if I'm wrong :P.

~Aqua

also, i doubt anyones going to stop playing balrog just because they aren't the most overpowered race in the game after the change... they still should be a fun race to play.

Bolle -

1) the race is overpowered.

2) we decide to nerf the UNITS, not the abilities.

So, two options:

1) stats
2) costs

Pro's and cons:

1) stats: less overall efficiency. Since they have too much of that, no problem!
2) costs. Increased cost per point = harder to grow. i.e. they are better late age. i.e. they profit from high income. Relatively speaking, is the income higher at 400 or at 2k? Right, at 2k. Also, is it easier to grow to a relatively more profitable size from 400, or from 2k? Right, 2k. Therefore, stats change > costs change. Unless, of course, the problem is the reverse. But I generally don't like high killing power races to be best taken at 2k... it enhances certain effects. Take a look around: Owls, high damage, low efficiency. Dark elfs, high damage, low efficiency. Templar, high damage, low efficiency. It's part of their power. So here comes balrog, high damage, high efficiency. Ehhhh... ?

OrigenX -

I say stats...especially that of the offspecs!!!

Also will the owls be redesigned? they are pretty useless and easily killed now with all the strong mages/attackers arround

Dev Lord Iluros -

I think it makes more since to nerf the stats because the costs themselves are balanced. Nerfing the costs is sort of random and doesn't really address the issue.

Halcyon -

Quote
his 700 OPA is including his elites. so basically he can't send out his too much elites without losing def and end up suiciding.


actually, since they have so much room they can have 20% weaps and walls in land pumps which allows them to suicide at minimal risk.

this has been discussed 2 ages back and i was in favour of reducing the elite efficiency, specifically the def value to <10 from 13. the cost isn't the issue, which would need to be adjusted accordingly
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