V has some questions

Open Archived VorteX opened this discussion on

OrigenX -

Plato: OrigenX you say it yourself, 11 theives cant kill a tribe with 9% gh and (relative) low tpa. But 4 attackers can land a kill on not one not two but... With help from mv´s.

I know what i said, i didnt say its impossible, i said i dont know why KP couldnt land the kill in this case as i dont know the initial damage from the first strike, if you have that intel then Dev should descide if the failrate was just too high then it should have been or that the damage is too far reduced... or maybe just very unlucky

I have played alot of thve tribes long time ago and for some reason i was almost always unlucky with my succes%

Bolle -

ah you guys should really stop diving into the t/m part... it's the attacker part that matters most.

Aqualightnin -

you cant look at just a part, you must look at the whole. lest things get taken out of context.

OrigenX -

Bolle you switch youre mind alot

first you said its not the raze but the fact your 11 TMs couldnt kill a 6k WE and now its the attacker part again

i dont follow, anyway test things out in devork thats what its also for right?

Bolle -

I have been saying all the time it's the raze (Although in the start I added the t/ms as a sidenote). Go look it up. EDIT: You can, by the way, tell from the titles of suggestions :)

And sure, Aqua. So can you look at the raze part for once? You might start with reading mine and Joe's posts on page 3.

Halcyon -

how on earth do you judge raze dmg without comparison to TM? it's the OPness relative to each other that prompted the discussion in the first place

Aqualightnin -

bolle, i've read every post, and i do understand what you are saying, but it seems like you're not taking anything else into consideration, which is why i felt the need to bring them up too. just trying to make sure the whole thing is looked at, and that raze doesn't get nerfed without it's case being presented fairly. :) (yes, it does hit crazy hard in war, but not any harder than a full warmode thief/mage can do, and out of war it's pretty useless)

edit - /agree with hal too

OrigenX -

My apologies Bolle it was mostly Vortex who pointed about the TMs

this much TXT is making me dizzie hard to keep up with who said what [:p]

Bolle -

that's why I kept repeating (especially when V went on a rant stampede).

Anyway, yes you're right, everything should be taken into consideration. Then again, the point I was most disturbed about was not the damage done but the impossibility to defend against it (insert walls/weaps as only possible defense argument). Because everyone likes to be able to do SOMETHING to save their tribe ;)

Aqualightnin -

thats the thing though, you CAN defend against it, just as much as you can defend against grabs. should we nerf attackers ability to grab too? where is the line?

attackers are a different mechanic, in which there range is much more limited, but the are much more potent when they are in range.

T/M's have a wider effective range (especially thieves), but aren't quite as dominant in any specific range.

if you play any shooter games, it can be compared. sure a knife/sword in most shooters are an instant kill, but their range is small, whereas an assault/battle rifle has a much wider range, but isn't exactly an instant kill at any range, but if they catch that knife guy at 40 yds away in the open, they're going to win (in orkfia that would be a T/M casting/opping a target 1/4th their size, or 4x their size)

sorry for my horrible analogy, I've been a bit sleep deprived this week, and couldn't be bothered to think of a better one, haha.

Bolle -

Yeah well, so the point is the acuteness of the problem. We have too high damage on raze in wars, and the impossibility to defend properly against it (however akin to its obvious nature). Conclusion: it needs immediate change.

quite clearly, the same does not apply to t/ms, since if they were overpowered there is always TPA, GH, CH, SoD, Thieves Trap, ML. In short, a lot. Which kinda auto-balances itself in the use of certain buildings, which slight imbalance can then be exploited by #1 whoever they are. Then dev notices at some point, and introduces a change. You can generally tell if 3/4th of the orkfia population goes mage and 1/4th goes thief that something is wrong.

EDIT: Also, I like the analogy, but I think snipers are always overpowered except in total team games with 100+ players.

Aqualightnin -

“We have too high damage on raze in wars, and the impossibility to defend properly against it”

i dont think it should be AND, i think it should be OR. if we change both, we could easily end up overbalancing it too far.

either give a way to defend, OR weaken razes damage in war.. i just dont want to see walls buffed against it, razes damage reduced, AND removing the 50-100% range (making it 100% only). i mean, small changes at a time, nothing drastic.

Bolle -

I see I phrased that badly. At any rate, I meant exactly the same as what you're saying, though my preference goes to changing the war bonus.

OrigenX -

well my proposal still stands

make a new ability to BUY raze defence say it lowers the Raze damage by 25% (just saying something) at cost of 2-4 hrs of money income (thus increases as youre size increases and adjusted to balrogs/drake income) which will last 1-2 hrs or something

its something else then just another spell/thve op or just a new building

and you cant use it all the time as it costs too much money just when you suspect an alliance to hit you you can buy or hire help

Bolle -

that may be exactly the problem (“new” phenomena are hard to code), though it's a nice proposal :P

Also, I think that raze defense you suggest is a bit too cheap.

kemi-san -

cheap, maybe, but it requires activity

Joe -

A good idea that could be implemented as a science overhaul: make science instantly buyable with money (like in classic) and give warding some deffy bonuses :)
Might be imba for #1 though.

Just one small point: 50% out of war and 100% in war is a 100% increase, i.e. a double damage. If you consider OOW razing as 'normal' a raze in war is not +50% damage, but +100% damage. (or the other way around, if you consider a WAR raae as 100%, an OOW raze is not 66% of normal damage but 50%, so HALF damage instead of 2/3rd.)

Time to sleep =)
You should all play chess! (this has nothing to do with this topic)

OrigenX -

So Joe what you are saying we need to increase RAZE damage oow to 66%??? [:p] just kidding

my suggestion numbers where a complete guess it needs to be experimented if something like this is implemented

And the instant sci like classic can eb a good alternative indeed sacrificing growth for xtra firepower or def
not only imbalanced for #1 as in infinity rank1 goes back and forth due to no-one is immortal!! but it can be easier though for huge tribes (like 25k balrogs [:p])

Joe -

It's the same as science currently works (sacrificing income for firepower) except that it works instantly and is therefore alot easier to coordinate =)

OrigenX -

i like it

should make it expensive though as it cant be seen like having labs

Martel -

Sigh at wrong maths and/or interpretation.

It's quite easy to confuse and it might even be my mistake.

100% + 50% = 150%. So is 150% - 50% = 75% or 100%?

The calcs are all right though, except for what's in the bug report. (A difference of 2.5 arsons per attack).

Dev - Joe -

@ Martel: as you put it in your first post, you said that 'normal damage' from a raze was the war damage: 100% damage.
When out of war there's a penalty, resulting in 50% damage.

So if you consider an OOW raze 'normal', 50% --> 100%. Then if you calculate a 'warraze' out of that 100%, it's not 150% damage but 200% damage.
The +50% is only true in the first case, in which you consider a warraze to be 100%. If you consider the OOW-raze to be 100%, a warraze will add another 100% resulting in 200% damage (i.e. double damage compared to OOW).

It's been an issue in alot more guide-articles. HaRRy had a way of phrasing it clearly I think. This would work also anyway:
RAZE DAMAGE during war: ~20 arsons (?).
RAZE DAMAGE out of war: ~10 arsons (?).
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