Thief loss vs Mage

Open Archived Smikis opened this discussion on

Smikis -

I've been struggling to understand why one would play thief, apart the fact that most people sometimes ignore thief defence, but when they don't thiefs are utterly useless.

Depending on a race you play, your losses for bunch of dark ops might be 3-5 ticks of income
There is no “remove traps” op like there is void
You cant really reduce enemy thiefs, even 5 tpa will make your 60tpa fail at very reasonable %
Add even small number of guardhouses and 50% of your ops will fail.

You're shit easy to kill, you don't have reasonable mage def because you need to run shitloads of hideouts, Hey, but you are good defended vs thiefs? Only if you have excess tpa to have thief's sit at home when opping .
Low cits ratio, lets face it, half of your military will be in thiefs.

Hey, but thiefs have self ops.. yes, you annoyingly have to login every 3 hours and even then you are most likely better off having no thiefs as income loss is always equal or even greater to self ops.
And if you're not 80% active to use them, they are real burden. I've played thief in one or another form for last few ages, pretty much a thief every time I die, having thiefs for self ops is really expensive in tax income, try to train 50k basics and look at your income for next few turns, now triple that number for thousands of land you have for reasonable tpa... taxes loss is quite substantial

If you looked at most alliances, you will find that there are 3 mages for 1 thief, those are some of the reasons why.
I once suggested giving mages fame loss on failed spells, at least out of war, but that was downvoted to hell, so yeh.. As thief you literally lose more than your enemy unless you have 80% success rate.

Simo -

I love thief..

Scarlet -

Interesting take.

With some barracks, a thief shouldn't notice any issue with the tax revenue, as it will add citz and reduce costs to the point where TA and land claim are crazy.

I have a few small operation tweaks lined up, which might address part of what you mention.

Smikis -

To run barracks means you arent running anything else, if that is suppose to help with lots tax income from low cits. Mines income will beat barracks income quite easily as its just 70 extra pop. Barracks don't reduce thief loss on ops either, nothing really does.

Nandu -

from what i've read, 'thieves' really aren't thieves. they are more spies or saboteurs. there is no direct way to
gain financially while depriving your enemy on the same operation.

what seems to be redundant, though, is the thief defense if what has been explained to me is correct. from the way
i understand it, your tpa is your form of defense against thievery, correct? on top of that, there are guard houses to
provide defense against thievery. my assumption (this part was not told to me) is that tpa is a relative type (some chance)
of defense while guard house is absolute. i just don't know if guard house reduces the effects on a operation once successful for
the sabotage type ops or only provides defense against an attack's chance of success. either way, there appears to be some
overlap that could definitely drain one's resources if utilizing both.

of course, this all could be said about mages, too, i believe, but with the overlap existing with churches and mage level.

forgive me if my understanding of how these things work is in error. i am new and only have my reading of the guide
to inform me. i tried really hard to look over the equations but they made my head turn around in ways i did not know
was possible for the human head. (think owls)

*edit* oh, and bastions can greatly reduce damage by both, reducing need for defense of either. (not all black ops but many)

Sanzo -

Thieves are the best only logical choice


I agree with Simo.

Thieves are fun to play - may just need a different play style to get used to but they have their advantages, despite the lower op chance vs mages spell chance

All a matter of making the right choices and experimenting to figure out how to make it all click

Smikis -

there is no beating around the bush guys, unless you play WE or Spirit, thiefs are not really viable

Simo -

Try a Mori and let me know. Check the personal ranking

Kelvin -

If thief losses is a problem, you probably shouldn't play thief. Off course you need to replace alot of lost thieves when warring, but the money is not an issue when you play thief...

Nandu -

so, i had my first experience with thieving black ops. this is less about thief loss and more about results but
i think it could fit in this discussion since the original poster's conclusion was that thieves suck.

i got the arson black op committed on me last night. 61 of my homes were burned down. this represented
more than 1% of my homes. so today, i figured i would arson someone. i burned down 1 of his homes.
this number represented less than 1% of his homes. it also took like 1800 of my 4500 thieves. made me
think of the old joke “how many ... does it take to change a lightbulb” except “how many thieves does it
take to burn one home down”

not sure i'm really contributing to the dialogue on thief strength other than on an anecdotal level.
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